Thursday, April 29, 2010

Can Jennifer Knapp Love Both God and Women?

(The video above is Part 1 of the Jennifer Knapp interview. Click here to watch the entire show.)

SKEPTIC: In what just might be one of the signs of the apocalypse, a prominent Christian singer, Jennifer Knapp, admitted that she is a lesbian. Not only did she admit it, but she didn't apologize for it and has no intention of repenting of her "sin." In fact, she doesn't even consider it to be a sin. She says she's still a "person of faith" and believes that there should be room for her in a church that preaches love as the ultimate value. So the question is being asked: Can someone truly be a Christian and an unrepentant gay person, or is "gay Christian" an oxymoron?

The Internet has been on fire with Christian angst over this fallen woman, with people condemning her and telling her that she's headed for the fiery furnace. Christian love on full display. A few days ago, she appeared on Larry King Live, alongside a conservative Christian preacher named Bob Botsford, who continually tried to insist that she must repent of her evil ways. She remained remarkably calm in the face of his less-than-loving onslaught.

Here's a typical reaction from the conservative Christian community. It was written by Mario Herrera at

Jennifer, there is no escaping what the Scripture reveals. You laugh and smile about the sin you are in. In reality, you have faith, but not a faith that originates from the God of Scripture. Your leadership is deceived and if you and they do not repent, I will tell you what Bob Botsford did not tell you, you will suffer eternal perdition in Hell along with them. Your homosexuality is an outward manifestation of your unbelief. You do not believe the Bible to be the Word of God and because of this you have a God made in your own image; an idol. The Lord is a loving and gracious God, but He is also Holy and Just!

I don't know, it just seems to me that Christians (particularly of the conservative bent) are WAY too hung up on sex. You guys would do the world a giant favor if you would just stop trying to tell everyone else WHO to have sex with, WHEN to have sex, and even WHY to have sex. If Jennifer Knapp were smart (and she certainly appears to be), she would run as far away as possible from this howling pack of judgmental bigots that are attacking her. I know that's a loaded word, but many Christians fit the dictionary definition to a T: A bigot is “one who is strongly partial to one’s own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.” Being intolerant of anyone who is not like you is bigotry, whether it’s in regard to race, class, or sexual identity. Christians, however, are so hung up on the idea that an ancient book is the final word on on every aspect of life that they can’t even recognize intolerance when they’re guilty of it. Imagine how much nicer the world would be if people lived their lives the way they see fit, and allowed others the liberty to do likewise (as long as they do no harm to others). But apparently it makes many Christians feel better to judge, berate, ridicule, and demean people who are gay. It’s a sad state of affairs.

PREACHER: Being a Christian doesn't stop you from doing wrong things, whether it be immoral sex or hating those who do immoral sex. Hating anyone, however they act, is wrong. We are supposed to love our enemies, even more so when it comes to those who may be confused or in denial about sexual morality. When Christians go after Jennifer Knapp, it has to do with them seeing how her lifestyle doesn't fit Biblical morality and commenting (sometimes with strong emotion) on it. Jennifer has twisted (not interpreted) Scripture in order to justify her lifestyle. She should be held accountable for that.

The bottom line is this: The Bible condemns homosexual acts, and no amount of reinterpreting it can change that. God loves all sinners, including those with same sex orientation. The problem comes when those who have developed a same sex attraction decide that they should embrace that and convince the rest of the world that it is good, even going so far as twisting the Bible's clear position to accomodate their lifestyle. They have a more serious problem than their sexual orientation. It is called lack of integrety. We may not agree on sexual morality, but I think we can agree on being honest, can't we?

SKEPTIC: Sure, I'm all for honesty. And so is Jennifer Knapp. It takes a lot of "integrity" to be open about who she is, knowing that she'd be creating this firestorm. I certainly admire her for that. But here's the problem - Christians always say they "love" gays, but then insist that they must repent and give up their whole identity, essentially, to get right with God. Unsurprisingly, that message doesn't usually feel like love - in fact, it usually feels like the opposite of love, and in fact, constitutes intolerance.

PREACHER: Why does sexual orientation have to define who someone is, anyway? Just because someone has a certain sexual orientation doesn't demand that they embrace it and act it out. We are more than our sexual orientation. It should and can be put in its place with all of our other appetites. Some people might find that more challenging than others. We Christians should be helping each other out rather than just judging those who have fallen into following their sexual orientation into immorality.

Suffice it to say that a Bible believing Christian is being inconsistant with his source of Truth when he calls same sex attraction good and normal. Now if you don't accept the Bible as your authority, then of course you can do whatever feels natural and label it "good" after the event.

SKEPTIC: So then why is it that many liberal Christian denominations have no problem accepting gays into their church - without the need for shame and repentance? In these churches, they are accepted for who they are - for how "God" made them. Are these churches not really Christian?

But I do agree with you when you say that "we are more than our sexual orientation." That's certainly true. Yet Christians often seem to have trouble seeing beyond that one aspect of a person.

PREACHER: I just recently read the doctrinal statement of a liberal Christian denomination. Although it says that they consider the Bible to be their authority, they also claim that it has error and out of date assumptions in it. How can something that is mistaken on major issues such as the origin of the universe and sexuality also be trusted as an authority? What they really do is pick and choose only the parts of the Bible that they feel good about and reject the rest. This is essentially what Jennifer has done. She likes the part that says Jesus has died for her sins and gives her eternal life. She doesn't like the part that says her lifestyle is sinful. It doesn't take too much wisdom to know what her real authority is. It is her opinion, isn't it?

SKEPTIC: Seriously? You're accusing them of picking and choosing from the Bible? Seems to me that that is clearly what you do when you assert your positions. But actually, I think the problem is that different people interpret the Bible in different ways. Sometimes much different. You'd think any God worth his salt would have come up with a way to communicate to the masses without causing so much confusion. So are you saying that liberal Christian denominations are not true Christians? Are they headed for hell?

PREACHER: There is a line between interpreting and twisting the Bible. When what you believe contradicts itself, that is you claim the Bible to be your authority when it really is not, you are no longer interpreting the Bible, you are making the opinions of men the final authority. God has communicated quite clearly, it is us sinful human beings who have difficulty sorting out what the Bible actually says from our opinions. I challenge you to point out how my insistence that the Bible teaches that homosexuality is wrong is a case of picking and choosing or my opinion. I don't hate gay people, but if they insist that the Bible says their lifestyle is OK, then I know that on that point at least they have put their opinion above what the Bible says. If they also say that they accept the Bible as their authority then they are being inconsistent, contradicting themselves.

I don't think you can make a very strong case from the Bible that gay or liberal Christians will go to hell. The epistles of the New Testament are full of warnings to Christians, those who are of the faith, about falling into sin and unbelief, and losing their reward (not losing their salvation). The gift of salvation (getting into heaven) is free to all who believe that Jesus died and rose again paying the penalty for their sins, but those who believed but didn't live a life that pleases God will certainly shrink back in shame in His presence when they realize that they have lived a lie.

SKEPTIC: So I guess that's good news for gay and liberal Christians. They still get to go to heaven, but they will experience some shrinkage.

PREACHER: That is shrinkage in the sense of wanting to find a hole in the ground to hide in out of embarressment when they realize how foolish they were.

SKEPTIC: Well, let's just hope there are enough holes to hide in once they get to heaven. As to your challenge, you pick and choose from the Bible every time you insist that the biblical injunction against homosexuals be followed, but show no concern for the myriad of other silly prohibitions - like those against wearing certain kinds of clothes or eating certain kinds of food.

PREACHER: You fail to see the distinction between the moral laws that are continued in the New Testament and apply to all of God's children versus those that only applied to the nation of Israel. For instance, I am not picking and choosing when I follow what the New Testament says that we no longer need to follow the Old Testament dietary laws, circumcision, etc.

SKEPTIC: So I DIDN'T have to get that circumcision?? Damn, I wish my parents had read that verse before I got the old "snip snip." That was not fun. Not fun at all.

I had to smile, though, when you said that "God has communicated quite clearly, it is us sinful human beings who have difficulty sorting out what the Bible says from our opinions." You can't really have it both ways. If God had communicated quite clearly, then no one should be having even a little difficulty understanding the meaning. But maybe God just enjoys watching all the confusion. It might just be a form of cheap entertainment for him.

PREACHER: May I suggest that before you call the Bible unclear and silly that you refresh your memory by reading it. It is mostly unclear to those who don't want to believe or obey it.

SKEPTIC: I dare say that I'm more familiar with The "Good" Book than many Christians. But may I be serious for a moment? Thank you.

Imagine that you're the Christian parent of a beautiful 22-year-old daughter. She's a fine Christian girl who is the apple of your eye. She has lots of fine Christian friends and nobody has anything bad to say about her. She is cherished by one and all.

One day she comes to you and tells you that dark secret that you had kind of suspected, but had never asked her about. She's in love with another woman. She's a lesbian. She explains to you that she's felt drawn to women for many years. Although she has some male friends, she has never had any romantic attraction to them.

You, as a Christian parent, now have 2 distinct options. Let's follow them to their logical conclusions...

Option A: You can talk to her about her feelings in a non-judgmental and caring way. You can perhaps assure her that God still loves her and watches over her. You can maybe even say that you love her just as much as before, and in fact, you're happy that she's found a wonderful partner to share her life and dreams with. The natural result of this option would be for her to feel much relief now that she has finally come out to you and to the world with her true self - and she would no doubt go on to live a happy and healthy life with a person she cared deeply about. Plus she would have a very healthy relationship with you, her father.

Option B: You sit down with your daughter and explain that the Bible says it's a sin to be a lesbian - and that she must break off her relationship at once. Furthermore, she must repent to God and ask his forgiveness. She must understand that it's unnatural for her to love a woman, and it means that Satan is attacking her. She must NEVER give in to those feelings for women. If she does, she risks the eternal wrath of God and may end up in hell. The natural result of this option would be for your daughter to feel immense guilt and shame. She'd probably try to change her feelings - maybe even go to some church-sponsored program that promises to make her straight. She reads her Bible and prays about it every day. But nothing works. She longs for the woman whom she cast out of her life. As she experiences more and more rejection from her family and friends, she falls into a deep depression, begins to look for solace in a bottle or with drugs, and one day a few years later, jumps from the 20th-floor window of a hotel room.

PREACHER: You have presented me with a false dichotomy. Either I need to accept her homosexuality as good, or at least OK, or I can reject it and risk having her feel rejected and maybe even committing suicide. Can't I choose a middle ground that affirms her as my beloved daughter, while still agreeing with the Bible that her lifestyle is immoral? I know of conservative Christians who have done just that, and their son or daughter are getting along fine with them, still caring for each other just the same. Christians have the assurance that Christ's grace covers everything about us, including a sexual orientation which we cannot seem to change.

I see that you dogmatically hold to your false assumption that sexual orientation is a "sealed in stone" fixed trait that can't be altered. And, if it is suppressed or controlled will lead to severe psychological damage. Therefore it is healthy to embrace and express it. However you allow that only for same-sex attraction. I guess pedophiles have no choice but to suppress their sexual orientation, commit an offence and be put on the sexual predator list, or go out and commit suicide.

So what exactly is "sexual orientation" anyway? There is no evidence of a "gay" gene. (That is why I call your assumption false.) It seems to me that the concept is very much a product of our present feel-good psycho culture.

Everyone is taught that they have a sexual orientation (gay or straight), and it is too wonderful to not express and embrace. Every relationship seems to be sexualized. If you say you love someone, it is almost assumed to be a sexual relationship. Is that really healthy? Is the sexual experience really that central and crucial for human happiness? Or, probably this present obsession with it is nothing more than a passing fad.

Skeptic: Firstly - YES, the sexual experience really is that central and crucial for human happiness. I think that's actually kind of obvious. And what happens with most people who feel pressured to change their sexual orientation is that they end up being celibate rather than embracing what they are being told is "unnatural" and "sinful." Do you think they are happy? I seriously doubt it.

Secondly - I don't know how a son or daughter can have a healthy relationship with their parents if accusations of "immorality" are constantly swirling about them.

But if you think changing your sexual orientation is so easy, imagine for a moment that you live in a different society where heterosexuality has been labeled "sinful." Their sacred book says that men loving women is an "abomination." How easy would it be for you to change your orientation to become gay? How would you go about that, exactly? A person is either attracted to men or attracted to women. You can't force someone to just flip a switch and change that. Of course, some people are apparently attracted to both - which just gives them a lot more options, I suppose.


  1. Skeptic says: YES, the sexual experience really is that central and crucial for human happiness. I think that's actually kind of obvious.

    Where does the skeptic get his authoritative info from?

  2. Skeptic: imagine for a moment that you live in a different society where heterosexuality has been labeled "sinful."

    Wouldn't such a society cease to exist in one generation?

  3. Skeptic: I don't know how a son or daughter can have a healthy relationship with their parents if accusations of "immorality" are constantly swirling about them.

    Time to go out and meet some real people.

  4. Well, I get my authoritative info from LIFE. As to your second point, you may be right, but you've missed the point. It's a thought experiment in which one tries to imagine how he might go about changing from straight to gay if pressured to do so. You can't imagine it, can you? But you have no problem insisting that gays must become straight.

  5. Your "LIFE" is not my authority. (Isn't it temporary?) I personally know real people that have switched from being straight to gay and vice versa. I have to refrain from giving a list of names for privacy sake. Yes, it is time to stop imagining and meet real people.

  6. "God had communicated quite clearly" but our minds our quite easily clouded by self-deception. I ended up reading "The Making of an Atheist" by James Spiegel after it was mentioned on this blog. He dealt pretty extensively with this point. However, I can bring up some scripture if there are those who are interested in that. But concerning self-deception, consider how easy it is to take a comment someone makes and take it the wrong way. Our minds are irrational to a certain extent, we are not Vulcan :)

    I'm not saying my understanding is perfect on all of this, but this is my understand right now on my journey through life.

  7. "You'd think any God worth his salt would have come up with a way to communicate to the masses without causing so much confusion."

    Unfortunately human language is ambiguous and I'm thinking the process of translation isn't perfect either (I think you could probably make the guarantee that there is no one-to-one mapping between any two languages on planet earth). This is why we go back to the original language and look at things like is the word "men" here mean a group of men, or mankind in general (an important thing to look at before making decision about the role of women in Church).

    And concerning the idea of things being "out-of-date". Like the preacher mentioned above, lots of Old Testament laws are not applicable to Christians...

    But what about the New Testament? It says in I Corinthians 11:6 that "if a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off?" (concerning propriety in worship). Clearly most churches are not following that command. Aren't they contradicting themselves if they say they believe the Bible is truth? No. Why? Because parts of the New Testament are directed to specific people and situations in the early church. For those kinds of passages, we can learn and apply the principles from the text.

    Take the issue of whether Christians can eat meat sacrificed at temples to pagan gods. That really isn't much of an issue today, but the principles there can be applied to any number of conflicts over things that the Bible is silent on (for example, the issue of what kind of music is appropriate in Church).

    The important idea here that reading the context and understanding the background is imperative. Yes, there is a process of interpretation, but there is no excuse for sloppiness. We must use the entire text, the facts, and the best information we have with the guidance of the Holy Spirit to understand the Bible.

    Now concerning passages about homosexuality. There are several passages throughout the Bible that people use to say homosexuality is wrong. The Genesis account of the first marriage (aka, God's design for marriage, he told them to be fruitful and multiple, reproduction can only take place between a male and female), Old Testament law (Leviticus), Jesus's description of marriage when addressing the issue of divorce (Mark 10), Romans 1... but let's focus on I Corinthians 6:9-10 and 1 Timothy 1:9-10. Now, the question about what the Bible says about homosexuality is whether or not it was just a cultural thing, and hence doesn't apply to us today. Both passage include lists of sins that are unacceptable to God, including sins like lying, slave trading (hmm, now there's material for another post), stealing, kidnapping, and murdering (things that I think we can agree are wrong, and rules that I'm pretty sure we can agree still apply today). Both passages also include the Greek word usually translated as homosexuals. But notice the context. It isn't some cultural issue being addressed, it is in a list of sins that are unacceptable to God, not just then, but now as well. (As a side-note, I do want to acknowledge that there seems to be some serious contention about the translation of that Greek word. However, my point here is simply to explain why most Christians believe that these passage concerning homosexuality still apply today instead simply being a cultural issue applying only to that time and place).

  8. Oh, and y'all could do an Atheist vs Skeptic or Evolutionist vs Skeptic entry someday... I think that might be interesting.

  9. Jeff: Thanks for your thorough explanation on how the Bible speaks about homosexuality. Are you suggesting that the preacher be the Skeptic for a change?

  10. Yes, I thought it might be an interesting idea...


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