Wednesday, November 11, 2009

Why Do Christians Hate Gay People?



SKEPTIC: I came across the above video on Tangle (formerly GodTube), a Christian video sharing site that is normally pretty conservative in its viewpoint. However, in this particular video, a Christian experiences an amazing epiphany after a gay business friend asks him, "Why do you Christians hate us so much?" As he ponders the question, he comes to realize that it's true that "Christians have treated gay people with distain and with hate." He goes on to reflect that "when someone doesn't agree with my Christian worldview, I can become unloving." And not once did he bring up the nonsensical "Love the sinner, hate the sin," which is the standard Christian canard used to explain their attitude toward gay people.

The problem with that, of course, is that by labeling gay people as "sinners," you are judging them and setting yourself up as morally superior to them. And that sort of judgment can lead to all sorts of bigotry and discrimination against gays. In any event, my hat is off to this man for his ability to come to grips with the true nature of his feelings and his apparent willingness to try to change them.


PREACHER: I can agree with the guy in the video. I am also very ashamed of the "Christians" who call gay people bad names, pick on them, and go around with placards and bumper stickers that say, "God Hates Fags." I believe they are reacting in fear to how the gay community might mess up our world for future generations and call down God's judgment. Unfortunately, their foolish actions and words are just causing more alienation, and not really helping the problem they are trying to address. (You may notice that I don't include myself with them. I am not aware that I have ever called a gay person names, picked on them or said that God hates them. I would never want to.) It is very unfortunate that Christians who are reaching out to gay people in love and helping them in many practical ways (I personally know of many who do) don't get very much publicity.

The guy in the video did say that you should stand up for what you believe. He was confessing his and many Christians unloving actions, words, and attitudes towards the gay community. But he wasn't saying that homosexual acts and gay marriage were good things. Although he didn't use the words, I believe he would agree with "Love the sinner, hate the sin." That phrase is only nonsensical to those who find their identity only in what they think, feel, and do. I believe one's identity is much more than just those aspects. (Though maybe, as an atheist, that is all you have to go on.)

Those who find their identity only in what they think, feel and do, get bent out of shape even when someone lovingly points out something about their behavior that is wrong. Love wants the best for other people. Accepting unhealthy immoral behavior is not love, it is indifference.

SKEPTIC: Well, it's great that you don't call gay people names or pick on them, but that's not really the issue. The issue is tolerance and acceptance of a group of people who are different from you. Unfortunately, Christianity (more often than not) becomes a barrier to real tolerance because it is so condemning and fearful of gays. When you say that their behavior is "unhealthy" and "immoral," that's not tolerance. That's a very harsh judgement which is based solely on your Christian worldview. Imposing that judgement on someone who is merely living out who he (or she) truly is (not who they suddenly decided to become) is destructive and hurtful. A truly tolerant person's attitude would be "to each his own." A truly tolerant person would congratulate a gay couple for finding someone to love and express support for such a union. But I don't see that happening within the Christian community anytime soon. They're too busy trying to deny rights to gays.

I guess that's the dilemma the guy in the video faces. While he understands that he has been unloving in his attitude, his religion prevents him from truly accepting gays. And while many Christians speak of wanting to show love, when someone accuses a gay person of immorality (like you just did), I suspect that feels more like hate.

And by the way, there is a lot of evidence that points to gay relationships in the Bible, especially the relationship between David and Jonathan.


PREACHER: Frankly, I think that those who see homosexual relationships in the Bible (the writer of the article forgot to mention the relationship of Jesus and the "beloved" disciple John) aren't able to discern between what is actually written in the text and their own imaginations. Even if any of those relationships actually had sexual acts in them, they still wouldn't be justified since other passages in both the Old and New Testaments clearly condemn such acts. Was physical attraction a factor in these relationships? Quite possibly. Did they stimulate each others sexual organs to enhance physical pleasure towards orgasm and demand that the culture of their day call that good, even allowing them to get married? I don't think so.

I prefer not to use the word "gay". Besides the fact that the word's original meaning had nothing to do with sexual preference, it labels a very nebulous group of people as shameful and sinful (according to conservative Christians) and as oppressed and righteous (according to liberals). It also discriminates against more unusual sexual orientations such as feelings of attraction to animals or feelings of attraction to minors. Do you believe that homosexuality is a good thing, but bestiality and pedophilia are wrong? If you were truly a moral relativist, you wouldn't make that distinction. Making that distinction makes your opinion a "moral authority." And, since you claim that there is no Moral Authority in the first place, your shaking of the finger at Christians who do have a Moral Authority and call homosexual acts wrong based on what that Authority has revealed, is only an expression of your opinion, which I don't recognize as a moral authority and is essentially meaningless.

Nowhere does the Bible condemn feelings of sexual attraction. When Jesus said that if a man looks on a woman with lust that he has already committed adultery, I am sure He wasn't referring to the feeling of "Isn't she beautiful," but to thoughts of "I want to have sexual contact with her, let me see how I can accomplish that." When the Bible condemns homosexuality or any other kind of sexual contact for that matter, it refers to the actual act, not the initial feeling. So I make a distinction between what is called sexual orientation and sexual acts. Sexual orientation simply determines what arouses a person sexually. I bet that is different for each person. What you actually act out with your sexual orientation, that is where good or bad are determined based on what our Creator has determined and not on the finite opinions of men.

SKEPTIC: Your response pretty much makes my point. You tie yourself in knots in an attempt to justify your intolerance. When you assert that gay relationships are no different than bestiality or pedophilia, you expose your true feelings about gays. You can claim that you don't hate them, but that kind of rhetoric doesn't qualify as any kind of love in my book. You claim you don't hate gays, and yet you hang a sign outside your Christian faith that says, "Gays need not apply," and I'm pretty sure that you also believe that an "unrepentant" gay person won't be admitted to heaven. Personally, I think it's Christians who need to "repent" for their bigotry and intolerance against their fellow human beings who happen to to be gay. But I'm not holding my breath on that score.

In regard to David and Jonathan's "friendship" in the Bible - I guess no one will ever know for sure what went on in the privacy of their room, but when David says of Jonathan in II Samuel 1:26, "Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women," I think it's not unreasonable to wonder about the nature of their relationship.

As far as lust goes, I'm in favor of it. The biblical injunction against it is ridiculous. If men and women didn't lust for each other, the human race would soon die out. Is that what you want?

One final question for you: What do Christians think gays should do? Stop being gay? That's like asking someone to stop being left-handed. Now I know that most Christians believe that people aren't born gay - that it's a choice. Of course, they have to believe that, otherwise they'd have to admit that God created them gay, and that would blow their mind. I also know that Christians believe that God can remove the gayness from a person, an idea which is ridiculous on its face. Just ask Super Christian Ted Haggard, who still struggles with his sexuality. Is he really better off now, having hidden and suppressed his true sexual feelings all his life?


Here's an idea: maybe Christians could just start to accept and respect their fellow travelers on this planet and stop trying to impose their two-thousand-year-old code of morality on everyone else. (Hey, I can dream, can't I?)


PREACHER: Again I see you like to use that "gay" word. It is used to separate out a group of people that have a particular way of feeling called sexual orientation, who may or may not actually act on it. It is a dastardly word that stigmatizes people and puts them in a contrived minority so they can be victims of the rest of society. I make a distinction between two groups: those who simply have a physical attraction to the same sex but use self-control versus those who commit immoral sexual acts and demand that everyone else call what they are doing good. (I make the same distinction with heterosexuals, too: married couples vs. flagrant adulterers.)

The first group I welcome with open arms to join the Christian faith. I respect their willingness to be honest about their feelings and would stand up for them against the shameful castigation that the majority in society might throw at them. The second group may come to my church, too. However, I wouldn't allow them to be leaders in my church, especially with the youth. That is because I believe that the homosexual lifestyle is immoral, based on the moral Authority, not just my opinion, that I trust. (You certainly realize that "hating gays" is not a Christian monopoly. I know plenty of Moslems, Buddhists, and even atheists who find homosexuality disgusting and wrong.)

From your comments, it seems to me that you place great value in sexual fulfillment. You seem to make it the apex of life, as if it were the ultimate good. I would even go so far to say that you have made it your "god". I suppose that anyone who makes sex their "god" would want to have that completely fulfilled. And, that would include being able to satisfy those irrational feelings that we call sexual orientation. Your sexuality then becomes your primary identity. Instead of being something you do, it becomes you.

SKEPTIC: Sex is my god? Well, I have been known to utter "Oh my God!" when having particularly good sex, so you may be on to something.

PREACHER: For me, the sexual experience spices up the marriage relationship between a man and a woman. Otherwise, it is nothing but a cheap thrill. It seems to me that those who insist that fulfilling and acting out their sexual orientation as the greatest good have made a cheap thrill the central meaning and purpose of life. When you think that way, it will be assumed that every endearing relationship must have a dominant sexual element to it. How absurd!

SKEPTIC: Okay, first of all - a cheap thrill is better than no thrill at all. But no one is talking about sex being "the central meaning and purpose of life." It's Christianity which has elevated the subject to sacred status and written a bunch of rules to be followed and declared that if you don't follow the rules, you're immoral and are going to burn in hell forever.

PREACHER: It is clear to me that proper expression of and about sexuality is intricately connected with morality. I say that homosexual acts are immoral. You say that my intolerant position on homosexual acts is immoral. I base my position on what the Bible teaches (it happens to be my final moral Authority), the opinions of the majority of humanity, and the "what if everyone did it" test. (Of course, some of your ecological extremists might applaud the decimation of the human population.) You have your opinion, the opinions of the gay community and some liberal thinkers, and the results of some controversial research done by the gay community.

Now, you claim to be a moral relativist, and don't claim to have any moral authority, nor do you set yourself up as a moral authority. It seems to me that you have abdicated your right to call anything immoral or wrong. You are able to express your opinion about whether you like something or not, but you cannot speak with authority and say that anything is really right or wrong. Hence, your complaining about my intolerance towards "gays" is meaningless, a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing.

But I will keep my peace with the "gay community" as long as they don't demand that the rest of us call their lifestyle good and insist that we should emulate it, support it with our taxes, and teach it to our children.

SKEPTIC: So in conclusion, you don't like the word "gay" because you've assigned some sort of nefarious special meaning to it; my opinion is meaningless and yours is the only one that matters because you got it from The Magic Book; you're cool with gay people as long as they don't "do the deed" or spread the gay virus to the young 'uns, and it's okay that Christians hate gays because lots of other people hate gays, too.

But I guess maybe I should be grateful that so many good Christian folk are willing to take upon themselves the thankless task of telling the rest of us how to live our lives.

So I'll make you a deal...

I will keep my peace with the "Christian community" as long as they don't demand that the rest of us call their lifestyle good and insist and that we should emulate it, support it with our taxes, and teach it to our children.


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54 comments:

  1. Dear Preacher,

    You said, "Do you believe that homosexuality is a good thing, but bestiality and pedophilia are wrong? If you were truly a moral relativist, you wouldn't make that distinction."

    Unfortunately that is incorrect. The point that you are missing here is that bestiality and pedophilia are not the same as sex with a consenting adult (of either sex). This is the same as Pat Robertson saying that gay marriage will lead to people wanting to marry animals. When you tell me how the sheep can give "consent" to be married, then I'm willing to listen to this argument. Until then, it has little merit.

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  2. the Preacher rejects the notion of homosexuality in bibilical (no the sanitised modern versions of) teachings.

    curious then that *all* the high profile cases of (usually Roman Catholic) clergy where child abuse was alleged and (in a majority of cases) proven were non-consenting -- thank you for high-lighting that, Anonymous -- misuses of underage *males* by the religious officals.

    how would you explain that, Preacher?

    FWIW, the word 'homosexual' defines both lesbians and gays, I prefer to use 'gay' in its traditional sense: joyful, bright, happy.

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  3. To my Annon. friend: If you are a consistent moral relativist, the need for consent is also relative, too. In other words, it isn't absolutely necessary. I would ask this. Why do some gays think that Christians hate them? What does hate mean in the first place? Can Christians and gays even agree on the meaning of the word? If you are a consistent moral relativist can you even say whether hate is really good or bad?

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  4. That phrase is only nonsensical to those who find their identity only in what they think, feel, and do. I believe one's identity is much more than just those aspects. (Though maybe, as an atheist, that is all you have to go on.)"

    I differ. I think that what one does, thinks, and feels is very much a definition of what that person is. For example, can you love a child molester yet hate only his child molesting? You'll probably say yes without even thinking this out. However, try it! Try to look at a person who does terrible things to little boys and girls and not think about what the person has done. I say it is nearly impossible. The nearly comes in if you actually like what the molester does. Same goes for any sin you can think of.

    Like it or not, we are what we think, feel, and do.

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  5. Robert. Thanks for your post. Pardon me but, I am not only what I think, feel, and do. My identity is more than that. I believe that it is very honorable to forgive someone for the wrong they have done, even if it may seem impossible. Forgiving them doesn't make what they did good or reverse the damage, but it sure is healing to how you feel towards the person who wronged you.

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  6. "I believe that it is very honorable to forgive someone for the wrong they have done, even if it may seem impossible"

    Now, you are being a jerk. It's not your place to forgive a gay man (or woman) for being gay. Being gay is not an attack on you or your beliefs. Another person being gay does not harm you. See what I mean. It is not your right to be offended by something that consenting adults do in their private (even public in most cases) lives if they are not harming anyone besides themselves by being gay.

    In the case of the child molester, it's your right to be offended by that (IMO). Because Child molesters hurt people who do not consent and are too young to make an informed decision. However, unless you are involved personally in the child molesters case, you really have no place to forgive him (personally) either. Only society as a whole (courts) and the victims should have the right to forgive him for that. Because, it was society and the victims that were harmed by his actions.

    Two men or two women consenting to a same sex relationship either sexually or emotionally does no harm to society (IMO) and definatly does me and you personally no harm. It is a victimless crime.

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  7. "I am not only what I think, feel, and do. My identity is more than that." --- Paul

    If you don't mind my asking what more than those three things are you? I would almost bet that anything you come up with could fit in one of those three catagories. If not? I'll admit when I'm wrong.

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  8. Ooops! Me made a boo boo.

    Let me clarify something.

    I said, "It is not your right to be offended by something that consenting adults do in their private (even public in most cases) lives if they are not harming anyone besides themselves by being gay."

    It is your right to be offended by anything, actually. I want to modify it.

    "You are not justified by being offended by something that consenting adults do in their private (even public in most cases) lives if they are not harming anyone besides themselves by being gay."

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  9. Point of clarification: I am not offended at what consenting adults do with each other. It is another matter when they expect me to call what they are doing "good" and to bless their "marriages."

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    1. Believe me, Paul, none of us want a dumbsh|t like you blessing our marriages.

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  10. When you say that I am not justified, you set yourself up as my moral authority. What qualifies you to be any sort of moral authority? Pardon me but,I don't recognise you as my moral authority. I know One who is my Moral Authority and I will be accountable to Him long after your life on this planet ends.

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  11. I am more than what I think, feel and do. My identity is found in my relationship with my Creator. So, you really don't believe in Him, huh. To me He is an objective reality so that would be beyond just what I think, feel and do.

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  12. "When you say that I am not justified, you set yourself up as my moral authority.

    Hmmmm... Maybe... No... Not really. All of that is just my opinion, which I freely admit and stated in the comment. I don't claim absolute infallability and I have been wrong before. So, don't get too indignant. I (as you pointed out) have no power to enforce any morality on you (nor would I try). I discuss, not force.

    As a matter of fact, besides keeping the law of the land, I have no moral authority besides my own rationality, reason, and critical thinking.

    Your lack of justification is due to no harm done to yourself (IMO). The only thing that I see used to justify theists being offended by concentual activities is a primitive book that is full of brutality. I'll go with reason and critical thinking.

    My moral authority is subject to change as new information becomes available. If I do it right, my moral rules will get better as I learn more. Your moral authority is written in stone and can never change, asuming you are a fundamentalist. Your blogroll points in that direction. If you are not a fundie let me know so I can apollogize.

    "I know One who is my Moral Authority and I will be accountable to Him long after your life on this planet ends."

    I don't believe you. The "One" you mention is conveniently invisible, is outside of time and space and communicates so subtly that you can't really tell if he is communicating at all. Which in my opinion looks alot like non-existence.

    However, I believe you do have a real tangible God that you worship, that you use as a moral authority. As a matter of fact, I have that God sitting right here on my desk. It's not invisible. I can touch it. IT has tremendous power over people and has inspired both acts of good and acts of brutality. It has lead wars and directed extreme acts of kindness. It is a true God that can be seen and proven to exist.

    Click here to see your God.

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  13. Oh Paul! I'm still interested in hearing an answer to comment #7. If you want to, of course.

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  14. "It is another matter when they expect me to call what they are doing "good" and to bless their "marriages."

    I actually agree. There's plenty of other ministers that'll perform the ceremony and our approval is not necessary. Ministers should have the right to not accept an offer to perform any ceremony. In my opinion, it's a business deal between the couple and the minister. The minister is under no obligation to so something he feels is wrong. It should be that way with everybody.

    In my opinion, nobody is justified by expecting anyone else to approve of an alternative life style (whatever it may be).

    Hey, your use of "scare quotes" is amusing. Why do you guys do that? On second thought don't answer that question.

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  15. I can know about you from the words you write, but those words aren't you. In the same way I can know about God from the words in the Bible, but the Bible isn't God. How absurd of you to suggest that the Bible is my God.

    So, how do you go about proving the non-existence of God. You position sounds like a leap of faith in the dark to me.

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  16. Paul, I have no interest in proving that God does not exist. Because, I can not know for absolute certainty that he doesn't exist. However, I see no evidence of God's existence and the proofs that I have been presented with can be explained by natural means. So, I am assuming that he does not exist until I am presented with convincing proof. I also assume that there are no invisible sprites living in my hedge, for the exact same reason. I do not think that assumption and faith are the same things. (Dawkins scale #6)

    When I was growing up, I was told that an idol is anything that you place above God in importance. I feel that most fundamentalists place too much emphasis on biblical inerrancy. So much, in fact, that they place scripture so high in importance that they neglect the actual "relationship" that they are supposed to have with their "creator". So, yes, I am acusing most Fundamentalists of worshiping The Bible as an idol. I am using fundamentalist logic to come to this conclusion.

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  17. Then let me answer you with a little atheistic logic. Our opinions - even our very existence - are without purpose and ultimately meaningless.

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  18. Paul, that is just plain silly. I have purpose because I give myself purpose. Life has meaning to those of us who are alive.

    Ultimately meaningless? Maybe. The universe doesn't care about meaning. Does there have to be a grand purpose and ultimate meaning? If there is no cosmic goal or grand cause, then why are we even here? Do we exist because the odds favor that we would exist eventually?

    These are questions I ask myself everyday. I do not have the answers to those deep questions. I don't claim to have any special knowledge about the universe. But there are so many people who make that claim. All the claims are different and I am not convinced by any of the proofs I have been given. I don't think anyone on this planet has the answers to those questions or ever have. Maybe, those are questions that don't have answers. We are all seekers of truth. You have chosen to seek truth through a book. I have chosen to seek truth in life.

    The tone of your comments sound offended. I don't really want to offend anyone, so I'll back off. I am sorry, if I offended you. I realize that I can be a little harsh and abrasive.

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  19. Robert, thanks for engaging in this debate, and no I am not offended at you.

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  20. This post seems to imply that gay people cannot be Christians, or that all Christians have difficulty accepting homosexuality. But, this isn't the case.

    There are many gay, and lesbian people who are committed followers of Jesus Christ, even clergy, and priests of the church.

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  21. Hi,Grace thanks for your comment. Let me clarify: Gay, I think means sexual attraction to the same sex. A gay person can become a Christian. What he does with his gayness will determine whether he is a mature Christian or an immature Christian. I have no trouble accepting a gay person even though I believe his gay lifestyle is wrong.

    And, yes some denominations allow openly gay people to be clergy and priests. You may have also noticed that those denominations are having a lot of their members, even whole groups of churches, leave over the gay issue. The question is over whether to keep what the Bible says about homosexuality (it is very clear on this) as the authority or to claim that today some of us are actually more knowledgeable and smarter than the Holy Spirit who is supposed to have inspired the text of the Bible.

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  22. Paul,

    Are you saying that a gay person who calls himself a Christian and who thinks being gay is not sinful and lives the gay lifestyle guilt-free (including plenty of gay sex) is only guilty of being "an immature Christian" and won't experience the white-hot heat of eternal damnation?

    And by the way, the Bible talks about stoning homosexuals. Can I assume that we shouldn't go that far? Actually, I see that the Ugandan government is on the verge of passing a law that would execute some gays or imprison them for life - the same Ugandan government that has close ties to anti-gay right-wing Christian ministers like Rick Warren and others.

    http://rawstory.com/2009/11/rick-warren-condemn-law-executing-gays/

    http://rawstory.com/2009/11/author-the-family-proposed-ugandan-law-execute-hiv-men/

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  23. Doug,

    I don't believe that being gay automatically sends you to hell. Unbelief and rebellion against God are the only things that do. Being gay, and that is specifically calling homosexuality good and saying that your opinion is more authoritative than what the Bible clearly teaches is a sign of rebellion and unbelief. It is a much more serious problem than just being gay.

    The commands to stone those who committed homosexual acts in the Old Testament are for the covenant nation of Israel and may not be applicable to a nation where not everyone is a believer. However, I would take the same stand as Rick Warren on the situation in Uganda.

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  24. So if I'm correctly reading between the lines, you're saying that a gay person who doesn't believe that's it wrong to be gay and yet still calls himself a Christian, is not a real Christian and is headed for the fiery furnace because he's guilty of "rebellion and unbelief." So your comment that "I don't believe that being gay automatically sends you to hell" only applies to those gays who are willing to give up their lifestyle and admit that it's a sin? I confess to being somewhat confused.

    I'm astounded that you would support the hands-off position taken by Rick Warren in regard to the proposed laws in Uganda that would execute or imprison people for being gay. Is it not the job of preachers to speak out when injustice rears its ugly head, wherever it appears? What if the Ugandan government was proposing the same law, but applying it to Christians instead of gays? I would hope that you would speak out against and condemn such an outrageous law. But I guess it all depends on whose ox is being gored, doesn't it?

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  25. Well, you see, not all Christians are interpreting the Scripture in the same manner in this issue. Even Bible scholars don't all agree.

    I personally don't feel that the Scripture is actually addressing the issue of sexual orientation, and speaking of folks who are constitutionally gay, involved in loving, and committed relationships

    It's my concern that the more traditional position of many churches is actually a hindrance to the spread of the gospel in the gay community, and is also very hurtful, and discouraging to our gay, and lesbian brothers, and sisters.

    I am not familiar with Rick Warren's views. But, is he saying that Christians should not speak out against the imprisonment, or execution of gay people? I can hardly believe that he would take such a position. No way.

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  26. You both seem to be using the "gay" word ambiguously. Are you speaking about sexual orientation, of folks who are constitutionally gay, involved in loving, and committed relationships (such relationships need not include sexual acts - I certainly would like to become friends with that sort), or are you talking about those folks who live for having homosexual encounters and want the rest of us to call such acts good. I see these as two very distinct groups, even though they both may call themselves gay.

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    1. You sound like a big time closet case. Afraid you migt like it too much Paulie boy, so you want to shut the rest of us down? Go to hell, we don't want friends like you.

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  27. Grace,

    I suggest you do a study of the word "homosexual" through the New Testament. There seems to be no way of getting around or reinterpreting these passages to mean anything else than that being a homosexual(one who thinks he has a right to that kind of sex) isn't pleasing to God.

    Bible scholars come in all stripes, so of course they don't agree on much of anything.

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  28. Doug,

    You are (again) setting yourself (and maybe the gay community and their sympathizers) up as a moral authority. What qualifies you (and them) to be a moral authority about anything?

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  29. I consider a homosexual act a sin based on what is written in the Bible. There seems to be a consensus in Uganda (based on the Bible?) that a homosexual act is wrong and therefore they are deciding to make it a crime. What qualifies you to say that they are wrong or unjust?

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  30. PAUL: Wow, I've just gone from being astounded to being downright flabbergasted!

    So you're cool with the proposed Ugandan law? If they want to execute gay people for their "sin," that's just fine with you?

    Since you didn't respond to my previous question, I'll ask it again. What if the same law targeted Christians instead of gays? Would you still be unwilling to condemn that law?

    GRACE: Rick Warren is saying that he isn't going to pass judgment on the law, essentially saying that it's none of his business, even though he has close ties to the people behind this atrocity. Check the links I posted earlier.

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  31. Doug,

    That law can only be enforced against acts of homosexuality not sexual orientation. Gays who have any wisdom at all could refrain from such acts, do them in absolute secret, or go across the border to do them.

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  32. On the other hand a law like that against Christians would be not only against what they do but also what they believe. The Chinese government tried to stamp out Christianity, but has failed miserably.

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  33. The bottom line though is, (since the Bible is my moral authority) being a Christian is not wrong, but homosexual acts are wrong.

    You can rant all day about what you think is right or wrong, but in the final analysis you are just expressing your opinion. You are not my moral authority.

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  34. Paul,

    Are you kidding me? They can "refrain from such acts, do them in absolute secret, or go across the border to do them?" THAT'S your solution to this abominable law? You are unbelievable. Rick Warren finally came out today with a strongly worded condemnation of the proposed law in a video that was sent to Ugandan pastors, asking them to please preach against it from their pulpits. By doing so, he earned a certain amount of respect from me. I urge you to watch it.

    And I'd appreciate it if you'd stop trying to denigrate my point-of-view with this "you're not my moral authority" bullshit. It's getting old.

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  35. Concerning the proposed law in Uganda, I have changed my mind. Rick Warren helped me to see the issue much better. Also, such an extreme law could very easily be used for politically malevolent purposes.

    As for lack of moral authority it comes with you atheistic world view. Such a world view denegrates everyone's opinion and makes it meaningless. But, for the sake of politeness I'll let off.

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  36. Well, I'm glad Rick talked some sense into you. Apparently his opinion of the law, which is the same as mine, is not "meaningless." I think you need to amend your statement to read, " Such a worldview denigrates everyone's opinion and makes it meaningless TO ME, who sees everything through the very narrow prism of a 2000-year-old book."

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  37. Thank God, Paul.

    If you are interested to hear a different perspective from Christians who feel as I do, check out "Evangelicals Concerned," on the web, or "Inclusive Orthodoxy."

    God bless.

    Your sister,
    Grace.

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  38. Grace,

    Thanks for the info. I found this interesting link...

    http://www.ecwr.org/

    But don't worry. Paul is perfectly cool with gay Christians - as long as you don't have sex. You know, it occurs to me that (from Paul's point of view) that is actually a pretty good argument for allowing same-sex marriage - everybody knows that your sex life comes to a screeching halt after you get married! ;-)

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  39. Homosexuals, thieves, murders, child molesters, liars, adulterers and drug addicts are all in bondage (addiction is spiritual bondage) to evil desires (or spirits, same thing).

    Christ was able to set people free from this by showing them how to receive the desire to do good things instead of evil and harmful things (the holy spirit).

    Obey Jesus' teachings in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5,6 & 7) and anyone can be freed from their evil addictions. This is basic Christianity. It is what it means to be saved.

    Read Act 5:32

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  40. If you want to be gay or homo,or queer,thats your right,according to the law of the land. I believe in God and that is my right.I don`t really care about you that are gay. You will face the final judgement and have to accept the punishment. So be it. I would love to see your face when God tell you."TO HELL WITH YOU". I can just hear you say, "BUT' but'BUT'.Make all the excuses you want to. I won`t put you down,but God will.

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  42. Loved it! Interesting Article. Hoping that you will continue posting an article having a useful information. Thanks very much for sharing such an amazing blog post. Keep posting....

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  43. "Homosexuals, thieves, murders, child molesters, liars, adulterers and drug addicts are all in bondage (addiction is spiritual bondage) to evil desires "

    Dont forget black people jews and gypsies theyre evil too!

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  44. "I would love to see your face when God tell you."TO HELL WITH YOU". I can just hear you say, "BUT' but'BUT'.Make all the excuses you want to. I won`t put you down,but God will."

    Hey Tina, sounds like you really cant wait for God to punish people. Taking delight in the future suffering of others doesnt sound like something Jesus would do tho. Actually it sounds quite devilish.
    Think about that.

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  45. After reading a good chunk of comments, all I have to say is read the Bible in the KJV. Then study it by reading the original texts, Hebrew and Greek and comparing them to the KJV. Then read up on what was happening at the time of them being written. A lot of work but, if you call yourself a follower of God and Jesus, then you better know what they are talking about, not just taking the face value of the words...

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  46. well lets just say that the lesbians are making it much harder for us straight guys that are looking for a good woman to share our life with.

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  47. With only 5% of the worlds population being homosexual, I'd say your not looking hard enough...

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  48. I don't really thing they get it. It's literally not a choice. I actually happens because a certain part of our brain is enlarged. Whatever religion you are, being either gay or lesbian isn't a choice. We can't just simply "flip a switch" in out heads and turn it off. I apologize if you can't accept that, but it's the truth.

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  49. I don't really thing they get it. It's literally not a choice. I actually happens because a certain part of our brain is enlarged. Whatever religion you are, being either gay or lesbian isn't a choice. We can't just simply "flip a switch" in out heads and turn it off. I apologize if you can't accept that, but it's the truth.

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  50. Weskara Ross, thanks for your post. You point that a certain part of your brain is enlarged that makes you gay lacks any conclusive medical or scientific evidence. It isn't a case of flipping a switch. It a case of identity: Who are you? Who determines how you should act and think (yourself or your Creator)? These are good questions to ask oneself.

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  51. To Tina, from many years ago who will most likely never read this; you're actually excited for the day you believe you get to witness peoples suffering?? How sadistic and evil-sounding. That's rather disturbing .. but not surprising.

    What is this nonsense about using the word gay? That as long as you are suppressing your sexual urges, you aren't actually gay? The exodus international people; aka "pray the gay away" people, have even admitted that it DOESN'T work. And even the founder admitted to struggling with homosexual thoughts and urges after all these years. Go figure. Want to know why? Because he's GAY. Even if he's married to a woman and forcing himself to have horrible sex with her, that still doesn't make him straight. It's what's in your heart that matters. It would be exactly the same thing as a straight guy trying to force himself to stop desiring women and to either become asexual or force himself to become attracted to men. If you forced yourself to have sex with men, as a straight man, would you feel then that you were actually gay? Or more like you were straight but forcing yourself to be gay? And can you just imagine how uncomfortable and awkward that would feel for you? That's the kind of stuff you force gay people to attempt to do all the time. Gay people can't just become straight in the same way straight people can't just become gay. It doesn't work like that. And to try to encourage someone to do so is just plain ridiculous.

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  52. To continue:

    I'm also appalled at the statement referencing how it's not our place to step in to Uganda and that those people should just stop acting on it or leave the country. Wow. Just wow. I don't recall how the statement exactly goes, but I'll phrase it in my own words "when they came to take the (insert group of people), I didn't speak out because I wasn't (those people). When they came to take the (insert another group of people), I didn't speak out because I wasn't (those people). And when they came to take me, I looked around for someone to speak out, but there was no one left." The point is, doing nothing to stop injustice because it doesn't pertain to you is unjust. A good question was raised .. if it were Christians being imprisoned or killed, would you still turn away?

    Why is it such a hard concept to just love and accept everyone? To not give the usual "I don't hate the sinner, I hate the sin." I call total BS. That's just a line gay people are so incredibly sick of hearing. Because for one, you are morally judging the person, labeling their behavior as a sin. And two, because the next sentence is usually about how the act is perverted, etc. That feels very much like judgment. My favorite of all, though, however, is when they say "I don't hate them, I just don't agree with their lifestyle." First, I'm not living a "lifestyle." Well, no more than a straight person is living a lifestyle. And second, excuse me, but who the hell are you? You don't AGREE with MY life? What makes you think you get to have a say in aggreeance over MY life? What makes you think you get to agree or disagree about anything I do? That's such a self-centered thing to say. It kills me. You don't agree with my life. Please. Get over yourself. That's insulting.

    I don't believe in god, and I don't agree with the people who choose to live that lifestyle (sorry, couldn't help myself). But you don't see me telling you to suppress your Christian beliefs. Live and let live, darn it. Live and let live. Oh, and stand up for injustices in the world. Because one day, those people might just be the ones to stand up for you.

    PS: if the only reason you try to be a good person is because you think there's some ultimate reward at the end for it, that actually just makes you an asshole. I treat all people with love and respect, regardless of age, sex, race, ethnicity, and sexual orientation, simply because it's the right thing to do. Not because I'm afraid of some punishment at the end.

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